Transcript

This page has the transcript of the Reimagining leadership in the environment sector webinar held on 29 January. You can also find additional Q&A given written answers after the webinar. Use the menu to go direct to a specific section.

More information

• Watch the webinar recording
• Reimagining leadership in the environment sector - Overview
• Download the presentation slides

Panellists and presenters:

• Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge
• Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge
• Alison Coburn, Common Purpose
• Simon Wightman, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation
• Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Welcome and Introductions

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the webinar. It's brilliant to have so many of you with us this afternoon. I hope you find the session useful.

My name's Simon Wightman. I'm a tall, white man with curly brown, slightly greying hair and glasses. I'm sat at my desk at home, and I'm pleased that the background's fuzzy, so you can't see the total state of the room. Books and papers everywhere.

If I can ask the rest of the panel to introduce themselves and include a short audio description, that would be great. Reem, should I go to you first?

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

Yes, happy to start. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Reem Assil. I'm a brown person, pronouns she, they. I'm wearing glasses, navy, head wrap and large, golden hoops. Behind me, you can see my cabinets with, books, some items that remind me of home, and the BBC Make a Difference Award as well.

Alison, do you want to go next?

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

Hi everyone, my name's Alison Coburn. I'm, middle-aged, I think I'm still middle-aged, I'm not quite sure. I'm at the upper end of middle-aged white woman. I'm tall, I've got blonde hair, which is going grey. I'm sitting in my loft in North London. And what you can't see is that I'm surrounded by plants, because this loft is a great greenhouse.

Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge

It's my turn, I guess. Hi everyone, good afternoon. My name is Azzam Al Kassir. I'm a middle-aged man with Middle Eastern features, I have a beard, and today I'm wearing a green cardigan. I'm in my makeshift home office. I'm surrounded by books. I have a huge collection of 19th century travel writings. I'm a book collector as well, so, yeah, happy to be with you today. Thank you.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thanks, everyone. Just a few practicalities before we kick off. Live captioning is available for the session. Please click on the closed captions button at the bottom of the window, and you should be able to see those.

You can post questions at any point, using the Q&A facility, which is also on the bar at the bottom of your screen. And I'd encourage you to vote questions that you really want answered live, and we'll try and prioritise those. You can do that by clicking on the thumbs up icon that's next to the question. We will try and get through as many questions as we can on the seminar, but if there are more questions than we do get a chance to answer live, we will answer them afterwards and make sure that they are shared with you all.

Please don't worry if you miss anything, we're recording the webinar, and we will share the transcript and any additional questions on the website as soon as we can.

Background and Overview

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

I was just casting my mind back to 2024, when a few of us had just been at the launch of the race report, and its staff perception survey. And afterwards, we found ourselves chatting a little bit about what still needed to change to make sure that the environment sector could truly reflect the communities that it sought to serve. And we agreed that there'd already been some progress in some areas. There'd been some fantastic, work around entry-level paid, roles within the sector.

But we knew that the data and the stories that people were telling through reports like the Race Report made it obvious that we were still risking losing brilliant people because of things like unclear promotion routes, limited chances to move up, within the sector. And being left out of key networks.

And we started wondering whether there was a way we could better support aspiring leaders from Global Majority backgrounds to secure those more senior roles within the sector.

And we've teamed up with Alison at Common Purpose, with Reem and Azzam at Makani Cambridge, who've helped us to rethink a little bit what leadership could look like within the sector.

They kicked off and run through a co-design process with aspiring leaders, with current leaders.

with HR professionals and with others, to see what we could do to make a difference.

I'm going to hand over to Reem, Azzam, and Alison to share more about the work they've been doing, and the conversations they've been having over the last year or so. Over to you guys.

Project Context and Approach

Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge

Thank you very much for this, Simon. I'll start by setting the context and giving just a short overview of the phases we did during this project. I will speak for about 5 to 6 minutes, and then, Reem and Alison will talk about phases 3 and 4.

First of all, I'll start by briefly setting the context for the project. The environmental sector remains one of the least ethnically diverse professional spaces in the UK. Representation is low overall, and drops further at senior levels, particularly in large organisations. And this was very clear in the RACE report and also in the literature in general that we reviewed in Phase 1.

This points to deeper questions about how leadership is defined. How decisions are made, and whose experience is recognised and valued within the sector. Reimagining leadership in the environmental sector was developed in response to this challenge as a collaboration between Makani Cambridge and Common Purpose, funded by Esmée Fairbairn Foundation.

From the very beginning, we treated lived experience as a form of expertise. We designed the project to centre the experience, rather than treating it as supplementary or just anecdotal. In Phase 1, we focused on listening and understanding. We used a mixed-methods approach that combined a light-touch literature review, two focus groups, and five in-depth interviews.

Global Majority professionals were central to this phase, but we also, spoke with sector experts and people with experience from other sectors. The purpose was to help us situate what we were hearing within a wider leadership and organisational context.

We used open questions and avoided fixed assumptions. This allowed participants to describe their experiences in their own terms. Across the focus groups and interviews, participants identified clear structural barriers, including unclear progression pathways, opaque promotion practices, and informal systems that advantage those already close to power. Many also spoke about being drawn into important diversity-related work that is not consistently recognised as leadership or supported through progression.

Participants also highlighted cultural barriers. In addition to the structural barriers, we have cultural barriers, and these include biased evaluations, narrow ideas of professionalism, limited access to informal networks, and the lack of visible role models at senior levels.

It's important to mention here that geography came up as well, with rural organisational settings creating additional distance or isolation for some. Over time, these experiences affect retention and people's sense of belonging in the sector.

A consistent message from Phase 1 was that goodwill alone is not enough. Participants emphasised the need for clear organisational ownership. Equity work cannot sit solely with HR or individual champions. It needs to be held by senior leaders and boards, with funders playing a role in reinforcing accountability. So, it's a shared responsibility, not a one-off or, like, sporadic, programmes or courses.

I will move to Phase 2, where we moved the work into reimagining and co-designing. We brought together a cohort of 21 Global Majority leaders, including senior leaders and also aspiring leaders, from across the sector, for a residential programme built around story sharing, reflection, and collective thinking.

During this programme, we invited participants to reflect on their experiences and to articulate what equitable leadership looks and feels like in practice. There was a strong support for leadership that is collaborative, transparent, and grounded in shared purpose. Participants spoke about the importance of support networks, mentorship, wellbeing, and being able to lead without having to downplay or fragment their identities.

Participants were also very clear that leadership programmes on their own are not sufficient.

For change to be lasting, organisations and senior executives need to be actively involved. Individual development needs to sit alongside organisational change, otherwise even well-designed courses or programmes risk remaining symbolic.

By the end of Phase 2, we had a set of shared insights and principles rooted in lived experience and shaped by an understanding of how organisations operate. These insights became the foundation for what we call the ecosystem approach that Reem will include, next in the presentation. So, thank you,

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

Thank you, awesome. Yeah, something worth, noting before I dive into the details of what we designed is the non-linear nature of this work, this cyclical, iterative, as it should be in a real co-creation spirit. So, although we're talking about Phase 1, 2, 3, and 4, that does not mean that we moved through them in a linear manner. We, more often than not, we were going back, we were refining, we were going forward and going back, and so on and so forth.

So, after we brought together the Global Majority leaders, a lot of ideas started emerging. We heard clearly what is needed, and the main message that was loudly and clearly driven home is that the onus cannot be on Global Majority folks to change the lack of racial representation in senior leadership in the environment sector. This is something that needs ownership by the wider system, because of the systemic and structural nature of this challenge.

So, it was very important to move from the individual deficit, the participant deficit model, towards an ecosystem approach to cultivating change. Meaning that, up until now, what we heard from people, more often than not about leadership development seen as something that is on the shoulders of the individuals, to develop themselves, to raise the bar, to reach certain criteria in order to progress in their careers. However, it became very clear that this is not the answer. So, we started playing with what we heard and put together a model. I'll have it on the screen, please, Alison. I'll talk you through it in a minute.

But what we did, because of the cyclical nature of how we worked, after the co-design with the Global Majority leaders, we took the ideas, the models that they suggested, what they wanted to see, what they didn't want to see in the programme. And we had a model in mind, which we then started talking to more people, and testing that model. And we heard stuff, and we went back, and we refined the model. And, you know, so on and so forth, until we came to the Phase 4 which we started. We brought together another cohort of organisations, stakeholders, if you will, and we, tested, our thinking. But I'll talk to you more, if we can go next, please, Alison. I'll talk to you about, and again, next as well here, yes, please.

So, given what we heard, and the need for an ecosystem approach, we thought that we need actually to think of leadership development with… outside of the box, with an organisational and systemic lens. So, we thought of bringing a cohort of organisations together, and that's also something that we heard from people, that one organisation or a few individuals will not be able to change to move the status quo – it needs a collective effort. So, the idea here is to bring a cohort of organisations, and people will not be applying individually, will not join this programme individually, they will join it as an organisation.

Before I tell you what this programme is, I will tell you what this programme is not. This is not a programme for Global Majority leaders. And that's a very important point to keep in mind. Again, because it's not on the Global Majority leaders to actually change the landscape now, the inequitable landscape when it comes to racial representation. So, each organisation will put forward a Global Majority leader, aspiring or senior, joined by someone from either from C-suite or senior, leadership team. So, they apply as duo to join the organisation because we heard from a lot of organisations, depending on size and isolation and resources, some of them actually, at the minute, do not have Global Majority leaders. However, they want to change that, and they want to join the work. So we are open to organisation putting, organisations putting forward -

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

- Hopefully, Reem will be back in a second.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Just in case, Alison, it could… Oh, I think we've lost Reem.

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

I think Reem's probably gone, and she's probably going to try and come back.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

If that doesn't work, Alison or Azzam, are you okay to speak to the slide?

Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge

I invite Alison to talk us through Phase 4, if you would like.

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

Yeah, okay, I'll move on to Phase 4, and then if Reem wants to add more when she comes back on this, then, so as Reem was saying, we… we proposed a model which involved the Global Majority leaders, senior leaders from organisations working together, and also developing a community of practice alongside that for people in leadership, human resources, and, diversity, equity, inclusion. So that it would be a real ecosystem with people from across organisations participating. And once we'd sort of developed this model, we realised that we had to think about and talk to senior executives within organisations about their perspective on this, if we were going to come up with something that would really work. So, we tested our thinking. And I'll skip the animal gathering for a moment.

We tested our thinking with a number of senior leaders. We held a group of interviews, we had 9 interviews, from people in different kinds of organisations across the sector, so some in the public sector, some in the NGOs, and some in the private sector. And we continued the process of co-design by having a one-day in-person workshop where 15 people came together from across the sector to help us think this through and to test the model and the outcome from the interviews and from the, workshop were…

Firstly, that there was a really strong demand amongst organisations to have a programme like this. And we heard repeatedly through the interviews the importance of senior leaders being involved and being active sponsors in developing any programme to provide opportunities, visibility, and also to be participants themselves. The organisational diversity in the sector, so the size of the organisations. So, you know, there's some very large organisations, very small, very, very small organisations, and everything in between. It felt that it was… and they said to us, really, that this whole idea of collaborating across the sector and developing a cohort-based model would be very good from the point of view of pooling resources and ideas and experience.

But was also very attractive, because people want to actually connect with one another across the sector on this, and in this process, we actually learned that people were doing things in different organisations, but they didn't know each other, and they didn't know what each other was doing, so there was a… there would be a real value in that. Also, that the ecosystem approach, which we've just been talking about, and Reem, I'll come back to you to finish your points.

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

My Wi-Fi just, went off, so yeah.

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

Don't worry. So the ecosystem approach that we were talking about was really widely supported, from the people that we spoke to. Oops, and I'm going to skip to, a slide. And felt that was… was a credible way of going forward, given the complexity of the challenge.

I think the other thing that really emerged from the interviews and from this co-design process is that there are actually relatively few Global Majority professionals at senior levels. So, I mean, there are quite a number of people who are progressing through organisations, so any future programme would need to include leaders that are not currently in, but aspiring to senior roles, as well as any potential senior leaders.

Reem, I don't know whether you want to go back and make your point, so shall I keep going?

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

I'll go back.

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

I didn't add much to what you said.

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

I think I'll then go back. But yeah, I mean, this is a testament to the cyclical nature of how we're doing things, folks, you know? Just Wi-Fi wanted to test us. Yeah, so I was, saying that, the programme will bring together Global Majority leaders and senior management or senior leadership from each organisation. They will have, two tracks, separate tracks, where the senior leaders will be actually having modules, and a community of practice. And that's because we heard about the need for actually senior leaders to equip themselves to be able to change the system and share power.

So, things about decolonising leadership, about how to be a good ally, how to share power, etc. And then a community of practice, also because we heard, I think maybe, Alison, I heard you, alluding to this - that people wanted to learn from one another, wanted to transfer knowledge across organisations. And then the Global Majority track will consist of 3 days in gathering in person. And also, this was because, what we heard about the importance of coming together. So only the… we brought the, as Azam said, 21 Global Majority leaders together for residential. And although it was short, it was one day and a half, we continue to see the ripple effect of these people spending time together. And, they told us, at the residential, they continued to, to share how actually healing and validating being able to spend the hours and time and structured time and unstructured time with, you know, with one another, especially for people who experience, who have lived experience of marginalisation and systems of harm and oppression.

In addition to the 3-day, in-person gathering, we will have also a community of practice, on a monthly basis, online. This is meant to be a co-learning space. We're centring, really, the collective wisdom of the Global Majority leaders' lived experience.

Now, you will see in the middle, there is a joint track as well, where the, both senior leaders and Global Majority leaders will come together and will experience themes that will be co-designed, actually, each cohort with, with the participants. These, track, you know, these joint sessions might have external speakers, might explore general themes about leadership and change and, representation, maybe cultural intelligence, you know, and so on and so forth.

You will have noticed that the community of practice for the Global Majority Leaders consists of 10 sessions, whereas the community of practice for in the senior track consists of 6 sessions. And that's because also we heard, and you see this at the bottom of the slide. We heard that there is a huge need, actually, for HR practitioners, EDI, if you will, practitioners from organisations to come together and to, also have a co-learning space where they can share knowledge, where they can share good practice, challenges, and make change happen together. So, the, hence the community of practice in that track will be split in nearly two halves. One half is for the senior leaders to have a co-learning, like CEOs, if you will, to have a co-learning space. And also, if they have… if they happen to have a dedicated HR department or EDI department in their organisation for the practitioners to come together.

If the organisation is small and they don't have a separate department, then the same senior leader can take part and participate in this small community of practice as well. The idea behind the design was actually to tackle the… the question of racial representation in senior leadership in the environment sector. At all levels, in a systemic manner, which needs, in order to be changed, needs a closer look at policies, needs a closer look at promotion and how it works at career progression pathways in organisations, recruitment. We heard this a lot as well, at, organisational culture, as Azam alluded to in the beginning as well.

So, we try to encompass all of that and encapsulate it in a model that, as much as possible, answers these questions, but also have the ability to take on board the learning and tweak as we go, so that the community of practice is a co-learning space. It's not something arbitrary that we would go to the leaders and say, you need to learn about A, B, and C. They will get to decide what they want to discuss in these spaces. Now, at the end, they will come together online or in person, this is, you know, this question sits with Simon, I think, and Esmée, to see how, you know, how the funding will go. But also, there is another idea that I'll quickly touch upon. I don't know, Alison, if you talked about it?

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

I didn't.

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

So also, we heard a willingness for like a collective gathering to bring leaders in the sector, call it summit, call it a yearly conference, where people know that this is something, not a one-off. This is something continuous that happens, year on year, and, where the participants in the, in the programme, both Global Majority and senior leaders and HR practitioners can come together, but also, where prospective participants can come and hear about their experience, and also maybe funders can come and hear about the experience, hear about the needs, see how we can move really properly on a deep level towards that ecosystem of change that tackles the question on all levels. So that was also an idea, and if this is to happen, it will be, you know, suggested, also to be in person and over a day and a half, or 24 hours it might be open to 50 people, where people can come together share learning, but also centre collective care. That's also another element. So spend time together, unstructured time, get to know one another, build that real sense of collectiveness and community spirit.

I talked a lot, I'll stop here.

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

Thank you, Reem.

So I've spoken about Phase 4 and about the learnings from the interviews and the workshop. Maybe just one thing to say is that we got very similar messages from the Global Majority co-design process and from the interviews and the senior executive… the co-design with senior executives. So, it was interesting to see how these things resonated across both groups, obviously coming from rather different perspectives.

So, finally, our recommendations. That a programme should take an ecosystem approach, which would address these structural and intersectional barriers for individuals, for organisations, and the wider sector, if we bring this cohort of organisations together. We adopt a cohort-based model, so, you know, a situation where we have the senior leaders, the Global Majority leaders, and the professionals applying together, and we've got organisational commitment also in the form of leadership and, equity, diversity, and inclusion professionals that we, as Reem discussed, we combine shared and parallel tracks for the participants.

We combined shared and parallel learning tracks, so we have role-specific development, and we also have opportunities for joint learning across the cohort, which we felt was also crucially important. Gaining perspective on each other's worlds was a really important part of this that we create a community of practice for, the leadership and the equity, diversity, inclusion leads from organisations, where they can also share learning and align approaches. Some of that might be learning as we go along in the programme, but it might be more broader learning about what they're doing in their organisations. And… Finally, we did hear a lot about the challenges facing the sector, and we would have to ensure affordability and access by having, you know, tiered fees, bursaries, and the programme would need funding in its early phases to develop a pilot and establish how we can take this forward, and obviously builds credibility with organisations in the sector, which would be a key part of that.

So, I think that's the end of our presentation, unless, Azzam and Reem, you want to add anything else that we've missed, or anything I've missed?

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

No, I haven't missed anything, Alison, but I will add something. The hope as well is to build on the work that is already in the sector. So we also heard, you know, that there are definitely initiatives around mentoring, coaching, you know, less so about, sponsorship and, you know, visibility, which, leads me to a point that I missed, actually, in the model. We're suggesting also in the model that each senior leader will commit to at least one shadowing opportunity, offering that to a Global Majority leader within the cohort, and one visibility opportunity, and this might be board meetings, this might be professional, network, meeting, but, like, giving visibility and raising, the profile of a Global Majority leader. And each senior leader will have to commit to a minimum of one shadowing and one visibility, of course, the more the merrier. And, and also we want to build on what already exists in the, in the sector, in terms of initiatives, self-care and well-being initiatives, you know, and, and so on and so forth.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Brilliant. Thanks everyone. That was a really helpful run-through.

Shortly, we've got my colleagues, Luna and Liam, keeping an eye on the Q&A, and they'll be posing some questions to us on your behalf. Just in case I forget, which I always do at the end of the session, I just wanted to say a massive thank you to everybody who's been involved in the work so far. You're meeting Alison, Azzam, Reem, and myself today. There have been so many people who've, who've participated to share their expertise, to share their ideas.

Q&A

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

We've had an amazing steering group of individuals to sort of really ask us some nutty questions as we've been going, and we're hugely grateful to their inputs as well. But Luna, shall I pass over to you? I think you might have a question for us.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Hi. So, you can see me and Liam in the Esmée office here. So, we're going to start with a question from Grace, which came in advance, if that's okay. I'm just going to read it out. So the context for this question is that for decades, leadership development programmes have centred on participants. This has merit, but I believe that it is why programmes ultimately fail to achieve lasting organisational or sector change. Stakeholders who hold significant power, for example, practitioners, teams, boards, advisors, funders, etc, can be passive observers removed from the programme development transformation process. Practitioners are closest to the participant's learning journey, and sporting must be a first priority. When all stakeholders in the programme ecosystem become active learners, there is the possibility of shared responsibility and sector-wide generational change.

Yes, so I'm just going to put that out there. I don't know if, and one of you wanted start with that. I'm going to post the question in the chat as well, so people can read it, in case I've fluffed it.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Reem, do you want to kick off with that one?

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

Yes, yeah, thank you so much, Grace, for the question. Really, resonates, and I hope that some of what we shared in the presentation answered the question. The hope is pretty much to engage at multiple levels exactly for what you described in your question. So the onus, as I said in the beginning, does not sit, solely with the Global Majority leaders to change their landscape and the status quo, but rather, organisationally, you know, move towards that, including HR, including, you know, C-suite. But also, the idea behind the annual gathering is also to engage funders, as you might have heard. Your question made us think of something that we haven't yet considered explicitly, which is how, actually, to resource the facilitators and the practitioners who are going to hold space and design, for example, the different modules and teach the different modules, whether that, supervision or, reflective spaces, or well-being spaces. As we know, this is integral and very important to an ecosystem approach like this. And we will be exploring that, definitely, with the spirit that there won't be a pre-made, ready answer from day one. That's something that we will need to explore and learn as we grow.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

The only thing I was going to add is the other thing we've been really conscious of is that this, this programme it doesn't sit in isolation, and that there's also lots of other initiatives going on within the sector, some led by NGO coalitions, some led by statutory agencies, and each exploring different bits of it. And some of the elements of Grace's question, I think, for us to incorporate within our programme, and others are for us to think about with partners, about how we provide that sort of ecosystem and that sort of support across all of the brilliant work that's, that's going on. That's all I was going to add.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thank you. I'm going to move to questions in the Q&A facility. Thanks, everybody, for popping them in. There's a couple of questions here about organisations who are interested in taking part without any Global Majority team members. Reem, I think you were talking about this when your Wi-Fi cut out, so I'll go to you.

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

Yeah, apologies for that. Yeah, I was saying that, we are… the programme, will be, we are recommending, highly recommending that the programme stays open to senior leaders participating, if they don't have in their organisation, at the moment of application, Global Majority leaders at all, which, we know, you know, is, is the case, for, in, in the sector.

The hope is through the participation, so they will have to, of course, commit to the, the senior leader's track and to their joint track. So, they will be actually in, in spaces with the Global Majority leaders. The senior track, including the, both the community of practice for HR and for themselves. And also, they will have to commit to the shadowing and to the visibility, opportunities, so the only thing that these organisations will be exempt from, if you will, if I am to use the word, is not to have a Global Majority leader on the programme.

And the hope is, by the end of the programme, and by being in these spaces, exchanging, you know, practice and knowledge that they would establish and implement, actually, a plan to change that reality that, in their organisation, they don't have at the moment, you know, Global Majority leaders be it in, like, whether it is starting recruitment at entry level, or actually recruiting for succession plans, or what have you, you know, with diversity in mind. I hope this answers the question.

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

Yeah, maybe, Reem, I was just going to add something to what you just said, which is that in the conversations we had with the professionals from, you know, equity, diversity, inclusion, leadership development. They were also very interested in being part of this, and we've included that in our proposal, but they were very interested in sharing opportunities between organisations as well, which are, in a way, not necessarily even linked to the programme, but they… they just felt, you know, they could provide opportunities beyond their own organisation for the wider sector.

So, if an organisation didn't have Global Majority participants, they could still participate in that, and we thought that was an interesting dimension to this, that people are actually looking for that, and maybe one of the things we haven't said, which we found, is that a lot of Global Majority leaders get stuck in roles and don't get opportunities to move between different types of roles and different organisations, at least not as much as their white counterparts do. And so, that would provide more opportunity for people, to experience different types of organisation, especially because people do move between, particularly between the public and the NGO sector, a lot. And so that was another element to this, I guess, just to add on to what Reem said.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thank you both. I'm going to go to this next question. This is from a senior leader who's been working in the sector for 25 years. They've said it can often be a lonely place, and not coming from a traditional background has meant, they have often had to have a lot of personal resilience. Has the programme considered this?

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

I think we have, because we heard this, you know, and that resilience actually is not only at the senior level, and the nature of the sector, and how people get into the sector and why they leave the sector when they do, why they come back to the sector when they do. So we didn't go into details when it comes to the different modules and the joint track. But hopefully some of the sessions will touch on that, and also the idea of bringing external speakers, either from the sector or from other sectors, which we did talk to senior Global Majority leaders in other sectors to learn about what enabled them to progress in their career. So, yeah, the idea is, to centre some of those challenges, and explore some of these, themes in, in the joint track.

Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge

I have to say that we heard many comments like this during the observation phase, and also during the co-design. Individuals, they are having to cope with their own circumstances, feelings of isolation, not belonging to the place where they are. And this is one of the main reasons why we are doing this work, and why we are continuing to do this work. It's very important. And also, it's very important to recognise that this is not an individual thing, because we are hearing this over and over, and also across organisations, across levels of seniority, this makes it systemic. And having a systemic problem like this needs a systemic solution. It doesn't work like having individual or sporadic courses or scattered programmes.

We need an ecosystem, a systemic change that can address these feelings of isolation, and also provides networks of help and assistance, and also show people that through sharing knowledge other people are experiencing similar things, and we need to find a solution for this. So, collectively and collaboratively. So thanks for sharing this comment.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thank you. So I'm going to move on to Alicia's question. Alicia's at the Hawkwood Centre for Future Thinking, and they've been, curating a six-month place-based, digital regenerative, and inclusive leadership programme for teams across the UK national landscapes, and they are asking about the… potential for collaboration. They note that their reflections very much time with, with, this works. I don't know who wants to take that?

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

Yeah, I mean, basically, yes, very happy to talk to anyone who's doing work in the sector, and indeed, if there's anybody listening who wants to have a conversation with us, we're very keen to do so, because we want to try and, as we've said, try and connect what's happening. You may not be able to connect it all through the programme, but there may be other ways of doing that, or working in collaboration, or whatever. This is a collective effort, and so we want to talk to anyone who's working in this area. So, the answer is yes, please, via the chat, or however, connect with us. I don't know how the best way to do it is that, but happy to talk.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Well, in that specific case, we will have contact details, so we can certainly follow up, but the invitation to anybody who's got elements of work that either, that sits alongside this, that could contribute to some of this work, just to get in touch. Esmée's really happy to act as a sort of a conduit and connector in this space where we can as well, so do get in touch if you've got similar programmes.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thank you. I'm going to ask a couple of questions. They're both specific to the programme, I think. So, Leigh's question is, what do you anticipate the cost to be for the programme? And, for example, how much would each of the 20 organisations need to pay to participate?

And then the second question is from Grace. What is the parallel funded programme for practitioners who are co-leading this work?

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

Shall I jump in on the fee point? Leigh, the answer is we don't know yet. We're proposing that there should be some fee for organisations that are able to pay. This is part of the conversation that we're having at the moment, as to how the pilot programme would be funded. I think in the longer term, we'd be asking organisations to perhaps make a bigger contribution than we would during the pilot, but this is all under discussion right now, so Happy to connect on it if you've got specific perspective. We know each other, so more than happy to have that conversation outside, if that would be helpful.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Yeah, and from Esmée's side, I mean, obviously, the final decision on the next stage sits with our trustees, but we are having those conversations with our trustees at the moment, and one of the principles that they've always been really clear on is that resources shouldn't be a barrier to participation in the programmes and small organisations with limited resources should have access to this provision just as much as well-resourced ones. So that is the principle that us as a funder will be approaching this work.

Alison Coburn, Common Purpose

I think that would be our approach, that, you know, access is important.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Yeah.

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

Yeah, I just wanted to add that, we are hoping and trying our best to centre, actually, an equitable approach when it comes to all elements, including the funding. Mindful that resources differ and vary so much across, the sector, so, we are moving with an intention to be equitable when it comes to the fee structure, so it won't be, like, a one-size-fits-all when it will materialise. We don't know the details yet, but something that we can tell you for sure is that we have this thinking, where we're coming from, from this place of wanting to have an equitable financial structure.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thank you, and does somebody want to take Grace's question about the parallel funded programme for practitioners who are co-leading this work?

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

Is that a question for Simon?

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Grace, that is probably one that we could pick up off, offline. I suspect in terms of… just to make sure I understand specifically what the proposal would be. Yeah, great, if we could because I was aware that was part of your original question, we might not have picked up on, and that might have been because I misunderstood it slightly, so if we can pick that up afterwards, then I'll put the answer when we get back to those we don't get round to. Sorry, that's a bit of a cop-out, but we'll pick that up.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Yeah, just to say, if there are questions that we're not able to answer during the webinar, we will answer them afterwards and post share those along with the recording, of the webinar. So I'm going to go to Lauren's question. So how do you see the power of this collective program working to influence environmental policy? As we know that Global Majority voices are not often in these policy-influencing spaces. Is there a way that this can tie in to make local and national policy change?

I'll let you mull that over for a second, because there was another similar question, here from Lily. What do you see as the long-lasting impacts beyond the end of this programme? Given that the programme is designed for a small group of individual participants, is there a risk that any cultural changes within organisations are reversed when certain individuals leave? Are they designed in ways for the ecosystem to maintain itself long-term?

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Who wants to have a go at that?

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

I can answer the second one. I want to actually nominate Azzam for the first one, with the political scientist in the space, I think, you know. But on the second, point, that's why we're hoping that it's not a one-off programme. So, also, part of the funding, conversation is ensuring the sustainability and long-term nature of, this ecosystem approach. And, also that's why the idea of an annual gathering emerged as well, so it hopefully, it will have that ripple effect throughout the sector, so whether people move vertically or horizontally, that long-term cultural change, will hopefully, be maintained.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thank you, Azzam, you've been volunteering.

Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge

I heard the question, which one was it? By Lauren, you said?

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Yeah, by Lauren. So, how do you see the power of this collective programme working to influence environmental policy?

Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge

Well, that's a difficult question, actually. We're discussing recently that we do realise that there are many pressures coming from different sides. We are in a not very welcoming atmosphere globally and nationally and everywhere, but this makes this work, like, much needed at the moment. If we are able to actually affect policies and make, change this, will, will try to, we are trying to achieve this through our approach, through this, collective approach of, ecosystems, so we can together think of ways to implement the change. We don't have, like, one solution or one answer to this question, but we want to provide the space and the place where we collectively can think of creative solutions, how we can respond to all these pressures coming from every side, economically and politically. We need to try to find new and creative ways, and show solidarity, and also see more people from different backgrounds being fairly represented in senior leadership, which is the main reason why we are doing this, this, project. So yeah, I don't have, like very clear answer to this, but it's just an invitation to collectively work on achieving this.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

And I think the only other reflection that I would have is if you look at lots of the, lots of the outcomes of an important natural environment, poor air quality, increased flooding, no access to all the benefits that come from nature-rich green spaces. We know that those don't fall equally among society, and that some of the most vulnerable within society, those who've been excluded from decision-making at high levels, are most exposed to some of those negative impacts unless the environment sector that's doing fantastic, full of fantastic, committed people is representative of all of those communities, I think it doesn't quite get us where we need to be, so I think that's… in terms of the whole reason behind why this work is so critical to what we want to achieve for the environment, as well as people, I think that's another really strong element that maybe feeds into Lauren's question, too.

I'm conscious of time, and just to reiterate that anything we don't… there are some brilliant questions we won't get round, but, and anything that we don't answer, we will commit to following up on. Luna, we've probably got time for one more, do you think?

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

I think it would be good to answer the last question from, Aliyah. Do you have an idea of when you're going to launch a pilot programme, and how we can stay in the loop on this?

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

That is a brilliant last question, and an excellent way of me making sure that I didn't forget to say anything about next steps. So, very happy to take that. We don't have an exact timeline yet. Beyond the fact that we would really like to get a pilot up and going this year, there are a few things that we need to get in line before that happens. There's a little bit of finer work in terms of how exactly it will work. But we will have news, I think, quite soon, in the next couple of months, and that we will be able to give a bit more clarity on timelines, how you can get involved beyond that. In terms of keeping in touch, if people are fine for us to keep their contact details, then we will make sure that we keep in touch that way. So do let us know.

Luna, can I check on that? Is it by exception? So, can we keep, can we keep contact details for people who've joined the webinar, or do we need specific.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Yes, we can, we'll… sorry to, talk over you. We will, follow up with everybody who's registered, with information about the webinar and any other follow-up information that we want to share.

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Cool, and yes, so we will keep in touch with everyone who wants to be kept in touch with, through that route.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Fantastic, thank you. I don't know if anybody wants to share any, like, last thoughts or anything before we close?

Simon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Because I'm unmuted, I will just say what a fantastic, journey it's been on in terms of my own understanding and, you know, working with fantastic people, with Alison, Azzam, and Reem, but with everybody else who's been involved, I've learned to load.

Esmée, as a funder, is committed to progress in this space, and to supporting all the people doing fantastic work in this. So, just a thank you to everyone from me. Anything from you guys?

Azzam Al Kassir, Makani Cambridge

Thank you, Simon. I actually want to thank Esmée team for the excellent way of working and the communication throughout the project. It's excellent and would love to keep this rolling and this collaboration continuing. So, thank you very much. And for everyone who showed interest in this work, and participated in the different phases.

Reem Assil, Makani Cambridge

Yeah, and, I want probably to, add a big, heartfelt thank you to all the Global Majority Leaders that participated in this work. We honour and appreciate that sharing lived experience of oppression, harm, and marginalisation is not as easy as coming and theorizing about something, and we don't take this trust lightly, and we will continue to centre their experiences, their collective wisdom, in whatever comes next.

Luna Dizon, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation

Thanks, everyone. Goodbye.